Randy Cantrell

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Small business owners often struggle to recruit, hire, train and retain people. For good reason, most don’t have a formal HR department headed with a professional equipped to navigate the modern personnel landscape.

There are a few things every small business owner can do to make the interview part of the process more impactful. Many owners have told me how they struggle during the interview. Very few have any formal or informal training. Most of us just learned on the fly. Sadly, we don’t always learn how to make this very important part of the process benefit us and the candidate.

Let me begin by encouraging you to read 3 books on how to hire people. Go to Amazon and look for these based on whatever criteria you decide. Know this – they’ll likely all be aimed at companies of size. You’ll have to do your own work to make them applicable to your situation, but that’s okay. You can do that.

I’m not going to provide you some step-by-step guide for interviewing because I don’t know your situation or context. What I do know is the goal of the interview – especially the first interview – is to figure out if you want to move forward.

Think back to your dating days. And if you’re dating right now, then this will be easier for you. 😉

You have some sort of criteria for people who may be suitable for dating. To each his own. It’s no different inside your company. Only you know what you’re looking for – what you’re most attracted to.

Get that settled in your mind. Like most dating people, it may change over time. What you thought you’d like…it may turn out that you don’t like that at all. That’s okay.

You’re searching for a candidate worthy of a first interview. People who tick most of the boxes in what you need and what you want. It doesn’t mean they’re perfect, but it means they may be worth pursuing further. You won’t know until you have that first interview.

HINT: Don’t make the first interview do too much. 

Too frequently we put so much pressure on the first interview we think we can figure out if this person is ideal for us in this first meeting. Don’t put that level of pressure on the first interview. It’s bad for you, and the candidate. Plus, it’s a great way to run off a really great candidate.

HINT: The more the candidate talks, the better.

Small business owners tend to use the first interview for things other than seeing if the pursuit should continue. Many tell me they use it to sell themselves to the candidate. And most confess they do that before they really know if the candidate is suitable or not.

Listen, this isn’t like top-level college coaches who have watched hours of game film on players and had staff members go watch the player perform in person. Those coaches set their sites on the players they want to recruit. Much of that meeting is the coach selling their program to lure the athlete to attend their university. That’s not your situation. So don’t waste your time selling yourself or your company. Not yet.

The first interview has one primary function – to figure out if a second interview is worthwhile. At the end of the interview you’ll have one of three choices to make:

1. Yes, this candidate seems like a good fit. A second interview should happen.
2. No, this candidate is clearly not a good fit. There’s no point in a second interview.
3. Maybe this candidate is a good fit. I don’t yet know so a second interview is warranted so we can figure this out.

Two of these outcomes will warrant a second conversation. As you prepare for this initial interview remind yourself of this important hint – the more the candidate talks, the more you’ll learn about them and the closer you’ll come to figure it out.

Now, think about the questions that can not only help you learn the most but questions that will also give the candidate an opportunity to reveal the most about themselves and their work.

Generally, I have found two specific types of questions most helpful. One is to ask them to describe a time when the outcome was most positive. Put the question into your own context. For example, if I were an electrical contractor looking for a cost estimator I might ask, “Describe a time when your estimate was most remarkable?” I want to hear them tell me about a time when they were most proud of their work.

As they talk, listen carefully. What are they focused on? What about it made them select this particular story to share? Don’t interrupt them, but continue to probe further. Don’t be satisfied with short answers. You want this to be a deep conversation.

“Tell me more,” is the magic phrase you can use to get deeper insights. And to keep the candidate talking.

This isn’t an interrogation, but many of the rules apply. For instance, you’ve seen plenty of cop shows where the detectives are trying to get the person to talk. The reason is simple. And it’s the same reason attorneys coach witnesses to just answer the question without volunteering more details. The more people talk the more we learn about them.

In your case, you want to learn all you can so you can decide if a second interview is worthwhile. If you catch yourself talking too much, then shut up. Be aware of your own talking. You’ll likely catch yourself revealing information that isn’t suitable for the occasion. You’ll have time for that later. Now isn’t the time.

Another question I have found helpful is the opposite of that first question. Again, let’s assume I’m an electrical contractor looking for an estimator. “Tell me about a time when things went terribly south.”

Again, I want to hear as much as possible. Do they blame others? Do they accept whatever role they may have played in it? How did they recover? What was the final outcome?

You can press without being an interrogator. If something sparks your curiosity, ask. Too often owners have told me that after the interview they wished they would have asked a question that for some reason they neglected to ask. Seize the moment. Ask.

Feed your curiosity. Follow your gut. If your intuition urges you to pursue details in one area, pursue it. Remember, you’re on a hunting trip to figure out if this person should advance in the process. The worst thing you can do is spend this time together and come away not knowing any more than when you went in. That’s your fault and nobody else’s. Avoid it.

Lastly, I’m fond of a third question that can give insight about why they may be looking to make a change and more importantly, what kind of things they’re most looking for. This matters because if it’s not congruent with my company and how I roll, then I’ll have fit question answered. It might go something like this, “Professionally speaking, describe what makes you most happy?”

I’m looking for the work they most enjoy. If I need a cost estimator, but this person describes all kinds of work that have nothing or very little to do with cost estimating, then I can either cut and run or probe further (which would be my ideal option). Maybe there’s other type work they’d be more suited for. Maybe that could fit inside my company, maybe not…but you may as well find out all you can. Many a good person has been hired for a slot outside the scope of what they initially interviewed for — because it was something they wanted to do more than the thing for which they were first interviewed. Good people are good people. You want to find all the ones you can.

Listen. Really listen. Listen to understand. Don’t prejudge. Don’t judge. You’re simply trying to understand this person better. Take notes and get it right. Nothing is worse than not listening carefully and thinking something that simply wasn’t there. Don’t let the interview be unproductive because you didn’t show up prepared to listen and learn.

Above all, be kind. There is no place for pompous, arrogant displays of power or authority. This is a human to human conversation. Be respectful, grateful and appreciative. Even though you’re not being interviewed (yet)…you are. The candidate is paying close attention. You want to put your best foot forward.

Let the candidate know up front that you’re just doing this first interview as the primary step in the process. Don’t promise a second interview, but don’t rub their nose in the fact that you may not move them forward in the process. They’re smart. They know how this goes. At the same time let them know that part of the process may eventually be more of a give and take exchange where they ask you questions. Their time will come. Maybe. 😉

Be well. Do good. Grow great!

Randy

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A few years ago I stumbled onto a group – a non-profit based in Cincinnati, Ohio. It wasn’t because I qualified to join their ranks. But it was because I read some heartbreaking story of a father whose daughter was murdered. His pain was obvious and he mentioned how people disappeared on him in his darkest moments. He didn’t judge them. He understood how people simply didn’t know what to do, or what to say.

Well, I went down the rabbit hole of searching more articles about this organization, a non-profit taking on this enormous heart-wrenching challenge. There were a few articles, but it’s not like finding articles about organizations helping cancer victims or heart attack victims. You can find thousands of online pieces about such things. I knew this was a group who likely understand victimization at an even deeper level. A more judgmental level. This was a group serving people with a special kind of stigma – people who continued to suffer blow after blow long after news of the murder of their loved ones.

But over and over again a truth was expressed in each article. A truth about this organization that thankfully I was not qualified to join. They know how to listen. 

They know how to listen.

You’ve heard me repeatedly say that judgment is easy, but understanding is hard. Mostly because we struggle to listen for understanding. It’s just much easier to listen for judgment. I suppose it makes us feel better about ourselves. But it’s not helpful. To us. Or others.

There’s a better way. A much better way. And that’s to lean on each other, especially others with whom we share some context. In this case the context is very specific and tragic – survivors who have lost a family member or friend to murder.

They are the National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children, Inc. – a 501 (c) (3) non-profit – whose tagline tells you exactly what they do and who they serve…

For The Family And Friends Of Those Who Have Died By Violence

If anybody understands the power of leveraging the power of others, I thought, surely it’s these people. So a few weeks ago I reached out to Bev Warnock, National Executive Director, and we talked on the phone. I asked her to let me record a conversation so you might benefit from hearing about how they have effectively leveraged the power of others through support group chapters around the country.

Joining us was Sherry Nolan, Volunteer Coordinator in the national office working alongside Bev. Unlike Bev, Sherry is herself a survivor. Her daughter was murdered in 2001. You’ll hear her story in our conversation.

What you won’t hear is that her daughter disappeared on Friday, September 7th, 2001. Four days later on Monday, September 10th authorities found her body. She was pregnant. Violently beaten to death while sleeping by her own husband of almost 2 years. The next day was historic. September 11, 2001. Sherry and her family’s tragedy was overshadowed by an international event. That’s worth mentioning because of how it negatively impacted Sherry and her family and their ability to have all those who wanted to mourn the passing of her daughter (and her unborn child). Many were unable to attend simply because of the timing. Murder and violence don’t much care about convenience or timing though.

Who you surround with matters!

Few stories are as compelling and as demonstrative of leveraging the power of others like the National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children. I had hoped to record Bev and Sherry using a video conferencing call so we could record both audio and video, but sadly their office – like many non-profits – is operating on a shoestring budget. They don’t even have a computer with a webcam. A state grant from Ohio and private donations are their means of support. I’d like to ask you to help them out if you’re so inclined. A few new computers would go a long, long way to helping these fine folks perform more efficiently and effectively. Think about donating to them today. But first, listen to their story and learn.

Be well. Do good. Grow great!

Randy

P.S. I’m taking the rest of the week off from the podcast because I’m traveling. Lord willing, I’ll be back next week.

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Earlier this year I lost a lifelong mentor. He had battled health problems for a number of years, but his death came quite unexpectedly.

Last week I was speaking with a buddy about mentors and surrounding yourself with people who can ideally serve you. Mostly we were talking about how rare and important it is to find people willing to challenge us because they care deeply about us.

I told him that many years ago I had intentionally surrounded myself with older men who shared my faith, but men from various parts of the country who are all wired differently. One of them passed away early this year. I was lamenting the loss of this man who provided something the others couldn’t. And he did it because it was how he was naturally wired.

He’d ask questions. Hard questions. Tough questions.

But I knew his intentions. I knew he cared about me. Unlike most of the others, whose judgment I trust, he never did “should” me. “You should do ____________,” was something I never heard him tell me. He was truly a loving guide who simply wanted my best.

Social media is filled with words of wisdom. Words are largely empty. Not because they’re powerless, but because they’re generic. Without context. Or because they’re sweepingly general. Sometimes, they’re just flatly false.

My son and I were talking about advice-giving and helping others through struggles when I recounted how my now gone mentor always helped me. I was telling my son about our final conversation on the phone, just days before he suddenly died. He was helping me review a specific challenge in my life. I told him one action I was considering. I asked him what he thought. He replied in his usual fashion, “You could do that. (long pause) I’m not sure it’d be right, but you could do that.” I laughed, even though the subject was quite serious, and said, “Well, what do mean?” He went on to offer one question, followed by another (his usual way of talking with me – and teaching me to think it all the way through). I loved him for it. I’ll always love him for it.

Do you want to be challenged in a caring way – by somebody you KNOW who wants only your best?

As a business owner or manager, you can tell people what to do. Orders are easy. If you enjoy barking out orders you likely don’t enjoy it when people disappoint you because they don’t do it precisely enough to suit you. Or when you find yourself having to repeat the same order to the same person over and over again.

Other than the person’s ineptness (which is possible), dictatorship tactics aren’t always ideal. Not if you want to build a high performing team and a high performing culture inside your organization. Orders are like judgment. Easy. Understanding is hard but far more profitable. Hard because it demands you lead with a higher purpose and greater intention.

It means you ask questions to help people figure it out for themselves. It helps them grow. It helps you grow your leadership. And it helps them move forward because they own the outcome. They’re the ones figuring it out thanks to your helpful challenges.

The other day I saw an article about accountability coaches. I was unaware that a person could effectively coach anybody in anything and NOT be an accountability coach. But evidently I was wrong. 😉

The article talked about some women struggling to lose weight and get fit. There are now accountability coaches helping ladies get on track and stay on track. They don’t necessarily provide specific fitness or diet coaching, but they focus on holding the person accountable for the goals they set for themselves. Again, it sounds like coaching to me, but it was interesting all the same.

Asking questions is a form of accountability, but only when the right questions are asked in the right way. And with the right intent.

My old mentor could have phrased things very differently or used a different tone and my feelings would likely be different, too.

“Well, you could do that if you want to be an idiot.”

“Well, you could do that if want to make matters worse.”

There are all kinds of ways he could have phrased it to make me question his motives in helping me. But after decades of such conversations and many candid expressions of our mutual love I knew this man only cared about one thing – me doing the very best thing for myself. So his questions weren’t like interrogations. They were intentionally thought-provoking. I never remember him ever beginning a sentence with the phrase, “You should…” It was much more likely going to be, “Are you sure that’d be right?”

And by asking the question I’d dig deeper and more often than chuckle and respond, “No, of course I’m not sure that’d be right. That’s why I’m asking YOU.”

He’d smile or chuckle back and ask another question. “What led you to believe that might be the right thing to do?” Then I’d have to rehearse my thought process and along the way endure his ongoing challenges, which frequently would show me the fallacy in my conclusions.

He could have just jumped right to those and said, “Well, you’re not thinking about it correctly. Here’s where you’re wrong.” By telling me he could have shortened the conversations for sure. But he knew he would have robbed me of this opportunity to learn and understand where I may have gotten it wrong.

Which method do you think as more lasting impact? You know the answer. So do I. Thanks in large part to a man who was about 15 years further up the road than me. I miss him.

Be well. Do good. Grow great.

Randy

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“What’s important?”

The answer can vary from hour to hour. Sometimes, minute to minute.

But that’s business. And while it can consume our life, it’s not our life. Not really.

I missed recording a show Monday because life got in the way. It happens. It’s happened to you. It happens to everybody.

Matt Kearney is a singer/songwriter in Nashville. Some years ago he wrote a song that contains a lyric, “I guess we’re all one phone call from our knees.” If you’ve ever received such a call, you know.

Over the weekend I was watching a documentary about the voicemails and phone calls made from the poor people trapped inside the World Trade Center towers on 9/11. A number of survivors shared their stories and recordings of their family members. It was heart-wrenching to hear these people talk about the value of a 5-second voicemail message left on a machine. These people – each of them with a very important name to their family and friends – gave their families a gift. The gift of being able to remember what they sounded like. As one survivor said, “I was told that after awhile you forget the sound of their voice.” She’s got a recording to remind her.

What’s important?

It’s not what. It’s who!

You do what you do largely for yourself. I know we chase and pursue because we love it. Or we love certain things about it.

But I also know we do it for somebody other than ourselves. At least I suspect most of us do.

In recent years I’ve thought increasingly more and more about inner circles – those people who matter the most. I suspect most of us have a relatively small inner circle. We care about a number of people, but our lives are most impacted by a far fewer number of people.

Look around your life. See if that’s not so.

I lost a lifelong best friend back in 2013. I lost a lifelong mentor earlier this year. My circle is shrinking. It happens as we grow older.

My father turned 96. My mom is 87. Life here won’t last forever.

I’m optimistic that we can enlarge our circle because love isn’t all the same. There are different types of love. Different levels of love.

The Matt Kearney song with that lyric is entitled, Closer To Love. There’s the rub.

What’s important?

The list of names you’re thinking of right now. The people who matter most to you. However long or short that list may be – those are the things that matter to you.

If you had been trapped inside one of those towers on 9/11 you wouldn’t likely call your second in command (no offense to him or her) to review some pressing business concern. Who would you call?

Some of the people appearing in the documentary showed phone company records – the calls made by their deceased loved one. They called more than one person. Some were able to contact family and friends. It was evident that the number one thing on their minds was contacting the people they loved the most.

They wanted to say a few things.

“I love you.”

“Good-bye.”

Many expressed concerns for children. “Tell the kids I love them. Take good care of them.”

“Thank you.”

Most expressed gratitude. They were thankful for these people. Thankful for the love, support, and service these people had provided. Thankful for the mates who said “Yes” to the question, “Will you marry me?” Thankful for the children. Thankful for mom and dad. Thankful for their lives and these important people.

As I watched I thought of who I might call and it’s a very short list of “must call” people. But it’s short for you, too.

That sounds like I’m downplaying the role people serve in our life, but I’m really going in the opposite direction. The people who matter most can be expanded with increased intentionality. And that intention is based largely on something different than you’re thinking.

Who do we matter to? Who do we serve? Who might be impacted by our absence?

Some grow increasingly focused on who can help them. I’m thinking of how we might expand the number of people we’re able to help. That subject is complicated. Mostly because we’re skittish on being helped. Largely because the kind of help people want to provide is harsh judgment and telling us what we should do. That ain’t the kind of help we need. Or want.

Watching and listening to these 9/11 stories reinforced what I already knew to be true. The phone calls were made to the people who mattered most to the victims. They were people who they knew loved them. People who had their best interests at heart. People with whom they felt a deep, strong connection.

How can we live so we’re that person for others?

Who would call you in the face of inescapable death? Why would they call you?

For the same reason these people called. Because you were important to them. Because you mattered more than others in their life.

Now flip it around. Who would YOU call?

Don’t put off saying what needs to be said. Or saying what you’ve not said in awhile.

Don’t put off doing what needs to be done.

THE reason you do all this – chasing all these sales, focusing on increasing profits, trying like crazy to grow this business – is because there are people who matter.  Let them know how much they matter. Today.

Be well. Do good. Grow great!

Randy

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Feeling all alone is a serious ailment. It’s not fatal. Not necessarily. But it can be if you don’t get unstuck from it.

Leaders too often get stuck in loneliness because the team isn’t a team any more. Maybe they never were. Not as much as they should be. They may have once been but lost their way.

You could be you once had a culture that you thought would last forever. Everybody was high energy. Everybody was an integral part. That was then. This is now. Now, people are going their own way. Most of all. You are.

The alone feeling is crushing. You want to find a way to get it back together. To get everybody in the same boat, rowing in the same direction.

You’re sick of this “everybody makes up their own rules” mentality. There are some great individual performers. Sure, some of them likely need to go, but you’ve lived with them so long you never thought they were as toxic as you now know they were. All along.

This isn’t like herding cats. That’s child’s play.

This is like pushing water uphill. It feels impossible.

And you’re feeling as bad as you’ve ever felt. Sales might be good. Profits, too. But those don’t help you feel better. Because you’re smart enough to know that the numbers won’t always go in a positive direction. Not with things rolling this way. You need to figure this out. You need to fix this.

Tendency One – the wrong one

Command and control. You’re so tired of people doing their own thing you decide to clamp down. With all the panache of a tyrannical dictator, you impose your will on everybody around you. “It’s high time I took control,” is your overriding thought. So you do – take control.

You replace loneliness with something perhaps even worse. Higher stress of thinking you have to touch and handle every single thing. It’s impossible. Logically you know you can’t do this. Worse yet, you don’t even want to do this. Not really. You want to get things on track. Right motivation, wrong strategy.

Stop yourself. Curb your enthusiasm for control. Free yourself and think about the loneliness. Lean into not isolating yourself even more and elevating your paranoia – something every dictator does! It goes with the turf.

Tendency Two – the right one

Review my 5 C’s: Compassion, Connection, Communication, Collaboration, Culture.

First, look at your talent. To right the ship and remedy your own isolation…you need the right people. Be vulnerable enough to realize you may not have the right people.

Circle the wagons with the most talented, trusted team members. If that’s just one or five, huddle with the team you trust most. The objective isn’t to form groupthink where everybody agrees with you – or with each other. The objective is to surround yourself with people for whom you can openly display compassion and with whom you can most easily connect. It’s the only way you’ll have deep enough – clear enough – communication to get out of this mess.

Foster debate among this group. Assign a contrarian in each conversation if you must. You need people able to push back and challenge so you can craft the best strategy.

Second, get really clear on the values. It’s soul searching time. You have to lead the ways with your values. But you also have to be considerate of your trusted team members (those talented ones who can help you move forward) and listen to them. Everybody needs to be able to buy into common values. This has to feel right to everybody! It also has to be natural to everybody. This is going to provide the answer in one simple phrase: “This is how we do things around here.”

Third, all communication is congruent with the values. This isn’t like America where we enjoy freedom of speech. This is your company. You have to control the communication, making sure it’s in keeping with the values. That doesn’t mean you don’t allow dissenters, but you only allow it when it’s appropriate and respectful. When it comes to building a high-performing culture you’re in control. You tell the story the way you need to tell it. Period.

Four, value the truth. Team members can’t whitewash or beat around the bush. Plain speak is the antidote needed. Truthfulness. Evidence-based dialogue. This is best done when you lead the way. Stand in front of your team and be candidly honest.

Five, manage the politics…which simply means managing the conflict. People get into disagreements over positions (relationship) and over the work (the actual tasks that happen). Conflict isn’t necessarily bad, but it can become very corrupt. Keep it honest and above board. Shut down bad behavior. Shut down selfish behavior. You’re all in this. Behave like it and make sure everybody else behaves like it.

Six, praise and encouragement. Reward what you want. Punish what you don’t. Focus on rewards though. Focus less on punitive actions. Cheer on great behavior and great performances. It works. You only doubt it if you’ve never tried it.

Alone isn’t permanent. Don’t live with it any longer. Fix it now. Otherwise, you’ll grow increasingly accustomed to it, convincing yourself that it’s just the way it is. No, it’s not the way it is – not if you want to grow great!

Be well. Do good. Grow great!

Randy

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Dog chases car.

Dog catches car.

Dog has no idea what to do with car.

Success can be like that. We spend so much time pursuing it that once we achieve it, we’re not sure what to do next. Yeah, I know – it’s a great problem to have. But it seems that no sooner does momentum swing toward success, then something happens to implode things.

You can scan the political landscape worldwide and see many examples. Look no further than 2016 when America appeared to tire of the career politicians. “Drain the swamp” fever grew. Now the opposition is calling for impeachment. Many revolutions have been won only to fall apart shortly after the victory party ended.

Success is more tenuous than failure. Failure can be easy to sustain. Success? Not so much.

Homeostasis is a real thing. Homeostasis is the ability or tendency to maintain internal stability in an organism to compensate for environmental changes. In short, it’s the power and influence to keep things the same. It’s the enemy of growth, improvement and progress.

Along with apathy, entropy and a host of other combatants, homeostasis works hard to bring you back down. It’s quite effective, too. It explains why it seems the forces against your success double down their efforts at the first sign you’re winning. Mostly we think it’s the power of others who don’t want us to succeed. Or maybe they’re jealous of our success. I rather think it’s just the universe forcing us to prove how badly we want success. Testing that burning desire I talked about in the last episode.

Become The Success You’re Chasing

It all starts with a single step. One goal. One objective.

Some problem to be solved. Some wrong to be righted.

It doesn’t start with some comprehensive, all-encompassing mission. Just one thing prompts the entire ordeal – the start of the revolution. The seeds of success are frequently quite small. But powerful.

Fake it ’til you make it is largely steeped in really solid evidence. It works. Because it’s less about fakery and more about embracing the feelings and emotions of success. Whenever we become the success we’re pursuing before we actually achieve it, then we’re experiencing the same feelings we’ll experience when success happens. That helps us change our behavior because those feelings drive us to do things we wouldn’t otherwise do. And those new behaviors deliver different outcomes for us. Success.

Do it long enough and you’ll experience transformational change. That is, the change will be deep and broad. So will the success.

Then it gets harder.

Common values. Common mission.

Here’s the heart of today’s lesson for your leadership. The troops need a shared vision if success is going to be sustained.

Did you realize it was 5 years after the British were beaten in the Battle of Yorktown when colonists in America constructed and adopted the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution? The fight for independence from England would have likely failed miserably had the colonists not recognized the need to be on the same page, fighting for the same causes. They needed shared values and these documents provided that, uniting people to muster up the courage and determination to defeat English rule.

From then until now our country has been embarked on this grand experiment at having a democratic republic. There is no finish line in this work. It’s a process and a journey that will just keep going. And it’s always been fraught with ups and downs. Like right now we’re hearing daily about IMPEACHMENT.

We keep on pressing. Struggling. Battling. For what? Greater success. More growth. Bigger improvement.

No sooner do we think we’ve got it figured out, then something changes. Sometimes happens to show us we don’t have it figured out. Or we don’t have it figured out quite as well as we thought.

Surviving success mostly means not growing satisfied with the current state of things. I think it’s less about complacency and lethargy and more about the loss of enthusiasm for curiosity and growth. People can become satisfied when we stop looking for ways to improve. When we feel this is good enough or whenever we question if it can even be made better. Yes, it can always be improved. There are things that can always be made better. Our job is to maintain and enhance our curiosity to discover HOW.

The best way to survive success is to achieve greater success.

Be well. Do good. Grow great.

Randy